Damage Factor vs. Defense

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dafelsheim
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Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by dafelsheim »

I understand that this game is supposed to be Viking Anime. However, I've read on this board where some higher level Dwellers (30+) can do hundreds of damage in a round a round with Amplify. How can defense possibly stack up against this?
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raleel
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by raleel »

normally this involves some heavy use of amplifies and tricks. So you should use the same tricks and amplifies. Normally, this also involves invoking some power that gives you a bonus, as well as magic items. Use a big shield and superior parry. Add in some evade.

I think this got recognized as a problem by Denizens of the North, because the Deflect meta was introduced. That triples the value of your DF and Parry. It also introduced the Eldritch meta, which triples your evade bonus and adds evade equal to your parry/5.
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andrew
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by andrew »

Hehe I think "anime" is Raleel's adjective... ;) Mine would be more along the lines of the heroic sagas, where heroes fight monsters, throw boulders, hold their breath for 30 minutes and are untouched by fire.

The effort was to have damage and defense closely matched, but giving offence a small advantage that would allow progress/forward-momentum in violent conflict.

Offense has:
DF (at a cost of 1 QR per point)
Pierce (at 0.5 QR)
Amplify as a way of doubling the damage
All of the above needs runes played

Defense has:
PF which requires no runes (at 2 QR per point)
Parry which does need runes played (1 QR)
Evade which defends against all traits (4 QR)
Amplify as a way of doubling defense
But also all of the defensive metas introduced in Denizens of the North (which were part of the blacksmithing system that was a last minute removal from the core rulebook because I wasn't happy with the system as it was in 2013).

From the list above, it would appear that defense has the advantage, but the major problem in defense is being able to pount an effective one against 3 types of damage (physical mental and spiritual). Right now combat flows very well, and we hope to further improve that with the upcoming bestiary.

With every lore book that has been released, we tweak the configuration based on player feedback and our own weekly games. One day a new version of RGS will be born, but until then a gentle evolution is happening with every book. For example, social/drama mechanics are now part of War of Shadow (next full sized lore book).
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raleel
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by raleel »

andrew wrote:Hehe I think "anime" is Raleel's adjective... ;) Mine would be more along the lines of the heroic sagas, where heroes fight monsters, throw boulders, hold their breath for 30 minutes and are untouched by fire.
yep, anime is definitely my view. I don't think they misalign at all - I bet we would both agree on mythological. Clearly past human norms :)
dafelsheim
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by dafelsheim »

Perhaps we haven't been doing the math right.

Example of two rounds of combat for Fjori in Fafnir's Treasure (as written.)

Round 1:
  • Free move (Tactical Advantage) to get behind an opponent

    Void Rune - Night of the Long Knives {Spell Song}: Attack Attack actions deal +5 P damage (+2 base + total from Battle Harp's Focus +2 and +1 Master of Kenning)

    Eihwaz + Gebo – Hand of Tyr {Maintain} (pull out third sword for free, can now attack with all three)
Round 2:
  • Free move (tactical advantage) as necessary to get behind opponent

    Void Rune - Night of the Long Knives {Spell Song}: Attack actions deal +5 P damage (+2 base + total from Battle Harp's Focus +2 and +1 Master of Kenning)

    Eihwaz + Gebo are In-Play (Hand of Tyr Active)

    Dagaz + Othala – Lunging Attack {Amplify}: DF 25, Pierce 12

Breakdown for Attack Damage
  • 3 Short Swords = DF 3, Pierce 6
    Night of the Long Knives = DF +2
    Stealthy Striker = DF +2
    Leaping Striker = DF +4
    Subtotal = DF 11, Pierce 6
    Amplify = DF 22, Pierce 12
    Focus (applied to DF) = DF +3

    Total: DF 25, Pierce 12
This is without any buffing from other party members or magic items. It's one example. So far, the party (composed of Fjori, Jokull, and Vanadis) has just been chewing through Denizens like crazy. 4 Zealots, laughable. Zombear, easy. 3 Zombears, not quite as easy but still not hard. 3 level 12 Dreyri (built around Bull Rush, Flying Charge, Attack from Above, etc.) were just torn to pieces by Jokull's ranged attacks.

When it came down to reaching Hel's Needle, I threw a level 18 Wolf at them (with Nether Touch to represent being 'zombified') and at last THAT gave them pause, finally. He managed to put a serious hurting on Vanadis and did moderate damage to the others (thanks to Degenerations, Fangs, Brutalize, Keep Aptitude Fangs, Lacerating Bite, Mauling, and Darting Fangs, a butt load of Defense, with a ton of Movement/Mobility and crazy Healing.) But still, in the end there was no real danger of them dying.

I know that there's a significant difference between Fafnir's Treasure's quick-reference character sheets and the rules presented in the core book. Might this be a reason for my Denizens being mowed through like grass?
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andrew
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by andrew »

Yup, Fafnir's Treasure favours the dwellers. It was published back in 2012 and was the first introduction to an RPG with runes. Knowing players will make mistakes as they learn, the power curve was skewed towards them. This was later flattened out in the Core Rulebook. We also wanted to showcase the benefits of team-work, so when buffs were played, it was an obvious and tangible boost! ;)
dafelsheim
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by dafelsheim »

This makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up!
Warmagon
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by Warmagon »

dafelsheim wrote:Perhaps we haven't been doing the math right.

Example of two rounds of combat for Fjori in Fafnir's Treasure (as written.)

Round 1:
  • Free move (Tactical Advantage) to get behind an opponent

    Void Rune - Night of the Long Knives {Spell Song}: Attack Attack actions deal +5 P damage (+2 base + total from Battle Harp's Focus +2 and +1 Master of Kenning)

    Eihwaz + Gebo – Hand of Tyr {Maintain} (pull out third sword for free, can now attack with all three)
Round 2:
  • Free move (tactical advantage) as necessary to get behind opponent

    Void Rune - Night of the Long Knives {Spell Song}: Attack actions deal +5 P damage (+2 base + total from Battle Harp's Focus +2 and +1 Master of Kenning)

    Eihwaz + Gebo are In-Play (Hand of Tyr Active)

    Dagaz + Othala – Lunging Attack {Amplify}: DF 25, Pierce 12

Breakdown for Attack Damage
  • 3 Short Swords = DF 3, Pierce 6
    Night of the Long Knives = DF +2
    Stealthy Striker = DF +2
    Leaping Striker = DF +4
    Subtotal = DF 11, Pierce 6
    Amplify = DF 22, Pierce 12
    Focus (applied to DF) = DF +3

    Total: DF 25, Pierce 12
This is without any buffing from other party members or magic items. It's one example. So far, the party (composed of Fjori, Jokull, and Vanadis) has just been chewing through Denizens like crazy. 4 Zealots, laughable. Zombear, easy. 3 Zombears, not quite as easy but still not hard. 3 level 12 Dreyri (built around Bull Rush, Flying Charge, Attack from Above, etc.) were just torn to pieces by Jokull's ranged attacks.

When it came down to reaching Hel's Needle, I threw a level 18 Wolf at them (with Nether Touch to represent being 'zombified') and at last THAT gave them pause, finally. He managed to put a serious hurting on Vanadis and did moderate damage to the others (thanks to Degenerations, Fangs, Brutalize, Keep Aptitude Fangs, Lacerating Bite, Mauling, and Darting Fangs, a butt load of Defense, with a ton of Movement/Mobility and crazy Healing.) But still, in the end there was no real danger of them dying.

I know that there's a significant difference between Fafnir's Treasure's quick-reference character sheets and the rules presented in the core book. Might this be a reason for my Denizens being mowed through like grass?
I have a dumb question about that. If all three hands are holding short swords, how is he using the harp to add Focus? Doesn't that also need hands to play an instrument (so the skald is either using weaker spell songs and tearing people's faces off with weapons, or focusing on spell actions with an instrument in hand)? I mean, the focus is not a large part of the damage for this set up so it doesn't really matter, but still.
dafelsheim
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by dafelsheim »

It doesn't actually say anywhere that he has to be PLAYING the harp. The default maximum number of equipped items is 4: 2 weapons/shields (or 1 two-handed weapon), 1 suit of armor, and one accessory. In this case, the Harp would be the accessory.
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Panjumanju
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Re: Damage Factor vs. Defense

Post by Panjumanju »

dafelsheim wrote:It doesn't actually say anywhere that he has to be PLAYING the harp. The default maximum number of equipped items is 4: 2 weapons/shields (or 1 two-handed weapon), 1 suit of armor, and one accessory. In this case, the Harp would be the accessory.
Sneaky.

I don't think I'd let a player get away with that. "Your memory of a harp helps you focus the, umm, task you're doing now. Yeah. It's like a B-flat."

//Panjumanju
--
"What strength!! But don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world."
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