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 Post subject: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:39 pm 
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So after reading this other thread that I will comment on in a minute, I decided to post some Skald respect & love here.
My first dweller that lasted about 2 months was my lovable Skald Leif!

He started as a level 9 in August and died in a very glorious way just last month at level 11.

LEIF (DPS Lord - title stolen from the other thread)
L: 11 E: 5 (PPPMS/P) D: 3 Spec: Wanderer
ACTIVES
Lunging Attack (w-mv + atk)
Flying Charge (mv + w-atk)
Power Attack (atk+2)
Hand of Tyr (3 hands)
Backstab (atk+3)
Ride of the Valkyries [void]

PASSIVES
Warrior of Song (DF +2 while spell-song)
Tactical Advantage (free move during upkeep)
Leaping Striker (attack after w-mv DF +1 pierce +2; after mv DF +3 Pierce +2)
Carried by Song (move +3 while spell-song)
Stealthy Striker (attack from behind, DF +2)
Martial Prowess [void] (DF +1)

SKILLS
Sense Motive
Athletics
Verbal Manipulation
Feather Fingers
Drinking Wenching
Sense Motive [void]

EQUIPMENT
3 hand axes @ level 9 (starting out)
3 damascus axes @ level 10 (fixing the Evingard mine reward)
2 damascus axes + Gram @ level 11 (reward at the end of Fafnir's Treasure)

So indirectly, this thread was insulting the Skald's ability to transform opponents into distant memories.

Fight starts, draw 3+void
Upkeep get yourself behind someone using tactical advantage (someone who will preferably not go before you in initiative)
Your action phase sing Hand of Tyr: 2 damascus axes + garm (df 3/3/4 pierce 2/2/8 parry 1/1/2 focus 2)
Backstab (assume I drew it) for DF=3+3+4+3+1+2+2+3=21 Pierce = 2+2+8+2=14... that's DF 21! If need be, Leif can amplify to 42!! Or double amplify to 63!!!
If he's crippled, then I can use next rune to do a Lunging Attack (assume I drew it) and Move 4 (weak move of 7 round up) and attack for 18 (or amp to 36)
My favorite was open spellsong triple amplify Lunging attack for w-mv 14 (28/2) and attack around 72!!!! Sometimes a well placed multi would be uber sweet!
Pierce 14 was godly!.... I miss him!

He died an amazing death fighting half-a-dozen zombears single-handedly! He took down 4 and succumbed to the last 2, but the sadest part of the story is that his body was never recovered for proper burial and the 2 runes pulled didn't produce any Valkyries. :(

If I had gone Poet, I think the Focus bonus would have been really sweet for KotLK and the heal would have been really nice.


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:09 am
Posts: 45
Reply from "that other thread"; though I would have preferred to keep that discussion there:

ccccFranklin wrote:
Fight starts, draw 3+void
Upkeep get yourself behind someone using tactical advantage (someone who will preferably not go before you in initiative)
Your action phase sing Hand of Tyr: 2 damascus axes + garm (df 3/3/4 pierce 2/2/8 parry 1/1/2 focus 2)
Backstab (assume I drew it) for DF=3+3+4+3+1+2+2+3=21 Pierce = 2+2+8+2=14... that's DF 21! If need be, Leif can amplify to 42!! Or double amplify to 63!!!
If he's crippled, then I can use next rune to do a Lunging Attack (assume I drew it) and Move 4 (weak move of 7 round up) and attack for 18 (or amp to 36)
My favorite was open spellsong triple amplify Lunging attack for w-mv 14 (28/2) and attack around 72!!!! Sometimes a well placed multi would be uber sweet!
Pierce 14 was godly!.... I miss him!

Okay. So the fight needs to start within 4 hexes, or Tactical Advantage doesn't do what it should. You also have the sword Sigurd used to slay Fafnir, and two weapons from Outer Midgard. You play backstab, amplify it...

...and your opponent plays a rune to turn. Your backstab only works from behind, so it does 0 damage, and you've just wasted 2 of your runes. Whoops.

Or don't I understand Backstab right?

But for the sake of argument, let's make this only a Power Attack, so DF19 Pierce 14. You have one unique magical item and two rare ones. The Ulfhednar, with a mere DF15 Pierce 8 is way behind. Unless he ALSO has one unique magical item which is neither weapon nor armor, so it stays active even in his Blood-Wolf Form. So (by Treasure Generator rules) he wears a magical saddle that, in addition to allowing his companions to ride him, gives him +2 DF and two additional passive powers - Fangs (+3DF/+6 Pierce) and Leaping Striker (+3DF/+2 Pierce). That takes him to DF23 Pierce 16.

A stretch? No more than the Lv11 Skald with dragonslayer weaponry.


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 3:46 pm
Posts: 38
Um..... were we playing Backstab wrong? If the victim turned, we would just forgo the +3 damage bonus, but the attack would still occur. But re-reading it you may be right. We were basing the power on the text just above the Acidic Spittle power. We assumed that the +3 is tied to the rear arc, but the attack is like any other. I think your understanding is correct.

Gram- Hey what can I tell you, it's the quests we did! Your saddle idea is fine, but the ulfhednar gets 1 item of benefit (accessory), whereas the Skald gets 3 weapons and armor and accessory.

Well you can just generate the numbers for 3 regular axes 6 DF and 6 pierce. So DF 17 and Pierce 8 and ulfhednar is 15 & 8... pretty much on par. Differentiation are raw move, heal, the ability to move and strike and extra destiny. Skald will cover more ground and do more but will lack the healing on attack. That extra rune in hand is also a huge +25% more actions. I don't know if you can pull off your build in 5 essence, giant size is a stretch. Post up a L11 E5 D3 variant in the build forum. Oh and Weapon metas are also pretty big.


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:56 pm 
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Posts: 8
Taleweaver wrote:
Reply from "that other thread"; though I would have preferred to keep that discussion there:
...and your opponent plays a rune to turn. Your backstab only works from behind, so it does 0 damage, and you've just wasted 2 of your runes. Whoops.

Or don't I understand Backstab right?


I sincerely hope that is not how Backstab works or that would make it the silliest ability in the game - worse than useless against anyone with a rune in hand. I would think that, if your opponent plays a rune to turn *before* you play the backstab that's fair game and you cannot play it (and that's already a big enough drawback) - but once the backstab has been declared and the runes put in play the base damage and the +3DF are locked in. The opponent turning around at that point would only result in him being able to do full defense instead of weak.


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:19 pm 
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zolt51 wrote:
Taleweaver wrote:
Reply from "that other thread"; though I would have preferred to keep that discussion there:
...and your opponent plays a rune to turn. Your backstab only works from behind, so it does 0 damage, and you've just wasted 2 of your runes. Whoops.

Or don't I understand Backstab right?


I sincerely hope that is not how Backstab works or that would make it the silliest ability in the game - worse than useless against anyone with a rune in hand. I would think that, if your opponent plays a rune to turn *before* you play the backstab that's fair game and you cannot play it (and that's already a big enough drawback) - but once the backstab has been declared and the runes put in play the base damage and the +3DF are locked in. The opponent turning around at that point would only result in him being able to do full defense instead of weak.


I think I would still AT LEAST allow it as an Attack. I can easily see the argument for the +3DF bonus being applied, and him getting a full Defend. He did just spend a rune to get that Defend too. Essentially, a pre-amplify.


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:33 pm 
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Is the change facing an interrupt or a reaction?

If the former then any backstab benefits are lost . It becomes a basic attack without the backstab modifiers.

If it is a reaction then backstab still functions

I assume it is an interrupt like all defensive actions.

So backstab has to target unpreppared or over extended targets. Which makes sense to me

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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Spin is an {Interrupt}

Quote:
When an opponent moves into striking distance, the defender can play a rune from In-Hand to In-Play to turn
around and face the opponent. This is considered an Interrupt action and can be performed during another
combatant’s Action phase. It can be performed in response to an attack and occurs before the attack
is resolved. Facing an opponent who strikes from behind grants you a Defend Action, however, getting
attacked from behind grants a Weak one (see page 100 for more on Weak actions).


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:35 am 
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So as an interrupt it would stop all benefits of a backstab attack.

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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:14 am 
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Yea. The phrasing on Backstab makes it sound like it would cancel the entire thing - no result at all. I think that's silly myself so a regular attack seems fine. I'd probably even give the +3 bonus, but the defender gets the full defend action in any event.


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 Post subject: Re: DPS "Lord" Skald
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:23 am 
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Backstab has been designed for situational use. Use at the end of a combat round when most everyone has burned through their runes. Taking a step back though, trading a rune for 3 points of QR value isn't the best choice for a defender. A rune is worth about 8 QR usually. The call to spin would be dictated more by a need to do a full Defend as opposed to a Weak Defend. Both are separate sources so negating the +3 DF doesn't negate the Attack action. This works best with several backstabbers surrounding a victim. The spins would eat through their hand very quickly.

Feel free to house rule as you see fit. You can always say that before an attack is declared, the defender gets to decide if they change facing. After the Attack is declared it's too late. The reason it's allowed after an attack is declared is because of the surrounded by the enemy situation. A defender is afforded the opportunity to change facing as the attacks come in, albeit at a steep cost.

That's the design reasoning. ;)

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