Defensive powers and defensive metas

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Drewwik
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Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Drewwik »

Quick question regarding defensive powers such as regenerating block and defensive metas such as deflect and evade. As I read it, the defensive metas are to give you some way to boost your defense when you don't have an active power to play. Is this accurate? You can't for example play Regenerating block, amplify and then trigger the deflect meta on your shield right?
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raleel
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by raleel »

Drewwik wrote:Quick question regarding defensive powers such as regenerating block and defensive metas such as deflect and evade. As I read it, the defensive metas are to give you some way to boost your defense when you don't have an active power to play. Is this accurate? You can't for example play Regenerating block, amplify and then trigger the deflect meta on your shield right?
where do you see text for that part? AFAIK, "defensive" in this context means "only is invoked with defend actions", not as a restriction to which active powers you can have in play.

So, yes, you can do your regen, amplify, deflect example.
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Drewwik
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Drewwik »

So if you have evade 3 parry 5 and play an amplify and an eldritch what would you say the final number is for your mitigation? Generally speaking you don't multiply then multiply again in this game. 2 amps is x3 not x2 then x2 for example. Eldritch adds a net 7 parry and amp provides 3 evade and 5 parry? The math gets funky doing it that way though. Thoughts? Tripling a number then doubling the product seems out of scope with everything else in the game that I've seen.
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raleel
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by raleel »

Drewwik wrote:So if you have evade 3 parry 5 and play an amplify and an eldritch what would you say the final number is for your mitigation? Generally speaking you don't multiply then multiply again in this game. 2 amps is x3 not x2 then x2 for example. Eldritch adds a net 7 parry and amp provides 3 evade and 5 parry? The math gets funky doing it that way though. Thoughts? Tripling a number then doubling the product seems out of scope with everything else in the game that I've seen.
this assumes that the amplify applies to both equally.

In the case of Eldritch and Deflect, you add 3 each time, so it scales faster than Amplify (amp adds 1 each time)

Evade 3 + amplify + eldritch
I would treat this as x4 (x3 from eldritch + 1 from amplify)
Parry 5
I would add the +1 parry for eldritch after the amplify. I think mostly because doing the math is easier, and eldritch is already really strong :)
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Drewwik
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Drewwik »

raleel wrote:
Drewwik wrote:So if you have evade 3 parry 5 and play an amplify and an eldritch what would you say the final number is for your mitigation? Generally speaking you don't multiply then multiply again in this game. 2 amps is x3 not x2 then x2 for example. Eldritch adds a net 7 parry and amp provides 3 evade and 5 parry? The math gets funky doing it that way though. Thoughts? Tripling a number then doubling the product seems out of scope with everything else in the game that I've seen.
this assumes that the amplify applies to both equally.

In the case of Eldritch and Deflect, you add 3 each time, so it scales faster than Amplify (amp adds 1 each time)

Evade 3 + amplify + eldritch
I would treat this as x4 (x3 from eldritch + 1 from amplify)
Parry 5
I would add the +1 parry for eldritch after the amplify. I think mostly because doing the math is easier, and eldritch is already really strong :)
This is the direction I was going. Each amp is an additional x1 and eldritch is essentially + x2 so yeah eldritch and amp would be x4, not x3 then x2. So if you started with 5 you end up with 20 not 30.
Brokk
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Brokk »

Pretty sure this is wrong but there is no other precedent I can think of elsewhere in the system. Amplify says "the end result is doubled" and Eldritch says a piece of that is tripled and adds a flat modifier separately... this whole breaking the pieces apart and applying multipliers separately seems like it makes the math WAY more complicated than intended.

Version 1:
(PF+P+(E*3+P/5)+Rune)*A

Version 2:
(PF*A+P*A+(E*(3+A)+P/5*A+Rune*A
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Drewwik
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Drewwik »

Brokk wrote:Pretty sure this is wrong but there is no other precedent I can think of elsewhere in the system. Amplify says "the end result is doubled" and Eldritch says a piece of that is tripled and adds a flat modifier separately... this whole breaking the pieces apart and applying multipliers separately seems like it makes the math WAY more complicated than intended.

Version 1:
(PF+P+(E*3+P/5)+Rune)*A

Version 2:
(PF*A+P*A+(E*(3+A)+P/5*A+Rune*A
I realize the math gets way more complicated, the problem I'm seeing is that nowhere else in the game can you multiply the end product of a previous multiplication. Multipliers are additive, not cumulative in everything else I've read.
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andrew
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by andrew »

Example:
Wearing armor that grants a PF +2 and a shield that grants a Parry +2

Normal Defend : PF +2 and Parry +2
Weak Defend : PF +1 and Parry +1

Evasive Manoeuvre
Perform a Weak Defend with a Parry +1 and an Evade +1


Performing an Evasive Manoeuvre
PF +1 (2 / 2 = 1)
Parry +2 ( 3 / 2 = 2 since round up)
and Evade +1
PF +1, Parry +2 and Evade +1

Evasive Manoeuvre + 1 Amplify
PF +2, Parry +4 and Evade +2

Evasive Manoeuvre + 1 Deflect
PF +3, Parry +6 and Evade +1

The reason this combination of Amplify and Deflect doesn't come up very often (if at all) is because in most situations it's very clear which meta is better, and all extra runes are used for that meta. Trait restrictions may induce this combination, so here is the result- the multipliers are additive, much like Amplify stacking. You don't want a situation where a multiplier is multiplying another multiplier. RGS is built on linear progression, not exponential.

Evasive Manoeuvre + 1 Amplify + 1 Deflect
PF x 4
Parry x 4
Evade x 2
So the result is: PF +4, Parry +8 and Evade +2

This clarification will be added to Lords of the Ash in the Norns chapter. I also see that an errata is in order for page 283 of Denizens of the North to "x3, x5, x7". Funny how this didn't come up for so long. Thanks for the great question!
Brokk
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Brokk »

Can you go over the slightly trickier Eldritch & Amplify combination because it has that Parry->Evade conversion

Side note: Confusion on PF here, why is it included in the Defend? Or more specifically why is it reduced in half by the weak defense in regards to deflect?

Edit: Rules Lawyer hat! Deflect MUST be worded like Eldritch because order of operations in the rules as written the PF bonus from a defend action does nothing. "If the PF is not enough to reduce the damage to 0, then a rune can be played to perform a Defend action." - Pg98
The intent is obvious but your example above doesn't make any sense rules as written. The wording should read: Deflect triples all existing Parry bonuses and then grants an additional Parry bonus equal to total PF times two.
Last edited by Brokk on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Drewwik
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Re: Defensive powers and defensive metas

Post by Drewwik »

So I'm also really confused by Deflect. Strictly speaking you apply PF then perform Defend actions. When you do your deflect which triples your PF, haven't you already passed that step and it would no longer apply? Maybe I'm too caught up in miniatures gaming which has strict order of operations.
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