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Lunch time game postmortem https://www.fateofthenorns.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=343 |
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Author: | raleel [ Mon May 04, 2015 5:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Lunch time game postmortem |
So, my lunch time FOTN game wrapped up. I don't currently have a FOTN game being played. Why did I wrap it up? It was very hard to do a FOTN game in the timespan of lunch. There was a lot of setup and it is a relatively alien system. If you have players that aren't reading between sessions, and they only touch it for an hour a week, it kind of fails. That having been said, I'd like to do it again on our Friday game, which is longer, steadier crowd, and more experienced gamers. Some of the group who did FOTN is in the friday game as well. I'd also do my own thing rather than run Fafnir's and Egil's like I did. I felt like I did a reasonable job with them, but I think I followed the book a bit much. I am thinking now that I will continue where my 13th age game left off, as they started Ragnarok in that. I have at least 2 players that are pro that, and I think another 2 are willing. Some random thoughts/criticisms/kudos about it are below.
Anyhow, this is much longer than I expected, and I imagine that if you got me over a mug of mead, I would have more to say that I forgot here. Despite many criticisms, I do like it quite a lot. we're kinda gearing up for Runequest here shortly, so it might be a few months before I get to, but we'll get to it. |
Author: | raleel [ Mon May 04, 2015 7:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
Additional random thought: The barrier to entry is quite high. Lets consider for a moment what you have to do as a player -
Now consider the Norn
This is on top of the books, and ignores things like playmats, hex maps, etc. I don't know that I have any good solutions for this. Encouraging the app would be good to help. I've tossed around a few character sheet formats. Power cards probably would help, but it's another cost. Honestly, a Roll20 template would go a long way, but it's past my abilities. quite honestly, a user study would probably be good, but that's likely out of the realm of a small publishing company. |
Author: | andrew [ Wed May 06, 2015 1:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
Raleel, THANK YOU for taking the time to catalogue your feedback so meticulously. This is a treasure trove of intel for me. I especially need to hear from groups which are "self taught", rather than learning hands on at a convention. As I roll out the rest of the Ragnarok books, I have some leverage on re-shaping the rules to a certain degree. I will take any and all valuable feedback and roll it into the rules/content evolution in The Illuminated Edda, Lords of the Ash, The War of Shadow, and the Saga quadrilogy (1 book per age, all of them tying together in a massive story arc). It won't be sudden or shocking, but more of a subtle shift, without contradicting the Core Rulebook. Once all of those books have been released, I am ready to create RGS 3.0 and that could be a big evolution for the runes. Somewhere in there I have to release Vigridr and the FOTN boardgame. LOL Pendelhaven's bottom line needs the capital. Now URGS is still in my mind, and in the works. I am looking at it for the possible god rules in a campaign world where you play the gods/jotuns/dvergar. Chris (author of Seith and Sword) has also put forth some interesting ideas for it, so maybe it will show up sooner rather than later, and offer a different but equally interesting use of the runes. Now to address your statements and ask questions of my own: Quote: The barrier to entry is quite high Agreed on all points! One of the things we wanted to do with Vanagard (this project may be pushed to 2016) is to produce inexpensive punch out cardboard runes which could sell for under $5. Since it's pushed, I think this will be a very good stretch goal for The Illuminated Edda. I plan to release a mini card deck of runes for $10 (current rune deck is $15 I think) and wood is $25 and metal is $40. Quote: Norn challenges Do you feel that a Monster Manual would help the Norn immensely? On a scale of 1 to 10? How about those power cards? Also if a player feels like they are overwhelmed with the number of abilities at starter levels (8-12), have they tried focusing on using runes for generic/cinematic actions instead of worrying about powers? How has that worked? If they didn't, why not? Off the top of my head for those really overwhelmed by the number of abilities: A rather drastic house rule change could be that you only get powers every few Essence levels. Quote: Friday night game I'd be very curious how your more veteran players fate with a longer play window. Quote: it is somewhat game slowing if you have Mental damage. The player can't decide which pile he's going to target without you passing over the iPad. Actually it's not meant to be open, players shouldn't see your playmats. They should remain hidden behind your Norn screen or on your iPad. they should make their best guesses based on info like "denizen X has a maintained spellsong and has just drawn his runes and hasn't played yet". Quote: Online game If you guys setup a roll20, and want me to run a 1-shot of Fafnir to compare to your home game, I would be happy to do that. ![]() |
Author: | raleel [ Wed May 06, 2015 3:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
andrew wrote: Raleel, THANK YOU for taking the time to catalogue your feedback so meticulously. This is a treasure trove of intel for me. I especially need to hear from groups which are "self taught", rather than learning hands on at a convention. no sweat. really felt that i needed to think about it for a while and put it out there. Quote: Agreed on all points! One of the things we wanted to do with Vanagard (this project may be pushed to 2016) is to produce inexpensive punch out cardboard runes which could sell for under $5. Since it's pushed, I think this will be a very good stretch goal for The Illuminated Edda. I plan to release a mini card deck of runes for $10 (current rune deck is $15 I think) and wood is $25 and metal is $40. this will be a good thing. a sheet or two of those would make quite a difference in the entry point. Quote: Do you feel that a Monster Manual would help the Norn immensely? On a scale of 1 to 10? maybe an 8. I LIKE the boards... don't get me wrong. but it's very intensive. It's hard to store and put together, etc. It's fun, but not good for Norn prep time. I guess ultimately, dwellers just don't need the same power sets as players. You can do quite well with a small set of easily flavored powers and a relatively small set of metas. Quote: How about those power cards? as a norn, probably like a 6. as a player I think it's higher. This is due to in small part because I read everything and I'm a sponge for it. Some of my players are not so much. It's time consuming to reference your powers through a couple of books. Much easier to have your set right there and understand them. I also am somewhat concerned about the player being focused on "this is all I can do" when he looks at the cards, but I think the out of combat effects help that a bit. Quote: Also if a player feels like they are overwhelmed with the number of abilities at starter levels (8-12), have they tried focusing on using runes for generic/cinematic actions instead of worrying about powers? How has that worked? If they didn't, why not? so, this is a thing that I've been fighting in relatively high crunch systems for a while now. If you have a bunch of things defined, the tendency with a particular set of people (maybe of them gamers) is for that to be the full scope of all your options. In effect, turning the RPG into a board game. So they don't do generic actions because they don't think of them as something they can do to do random X that is not listed on your sheet. I tried to encourage it, but it's hard to encourage. it. It also doesn't help that generic actions kind of rely on you trusting your GM is going to rule the way you think it will work. that doesn't work as well as I'd like. We had a discussion at our game last friday specifically about this. It's not a small problem. Quote: I'd be very curious how your more veteran players fare with a longer play window. yea, i'm forming a plan with that. we have some other things already planned, so we'll see. Quote: it is somewhat game slowing if you have Mental damage. The player can't decide which pile he's going to target without you passing over the iPad. Quote: Actually it's not meant to be open, players shouldn't see your playmats. They should remain hidden behind your Norn screen or on your iPad. they should make their best guesses based on info like "denizen X has a maintained spellsong and has just drawn his runes and hasn't played yet". that will give many howls from my players, and I don't think I blame them on that. that is quite lopsided towards the Norn, in a place where I can already be pretty lopsided if I desire ![]() I posted it to some of my players - one immediately responded back with his displeasure, feeling the entire attack would be wasted. I reminded him that it still did damage, and was still mental. but i get where they are coming from. Quote: Online game If you guys setup a roll20, and want me to run a 1-shot of Fafnir to compare to your home game, I would be happy to do that. ![]() thanks! I may take you up on that. |
Author: | raleel [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
Additional postmortem bit I was thinking about today. Mental damage - one of of my players (and one of my most experienced RPGers) really did not like mental damage. he found it to be disproportionately powerful. Now, I will admit that this particular player is kind of sensitive to having actions removed, but I do think he has a point. Even at half damage pretty much across the whole system, it's still extremely effective. Mental defense is quite rare (evade is hard to get, most parry actions like swords and shields aren't involving any mental defense, you have to match a trait), and it doesn't have to do much damage to have a big impact (before your turn, if they can hit your In Hand, damage = essence is enough to deny you a turn mostly, after your turn, it takes little to knock out powers). A base level Sunder Mind will almost definitely do enough damage to knock out an Essence 3 (lower level characters) denying them all non-void actions - including defends. I think the big issue with this is action denial. While it has been traditionally a part of many games, it can be very not fun for the people being subjected to it. It also makes the player disengage from the game. Those things are not good at my table. My current thinking is something like this: Quote: Mental damage works similarly to physical damage with some exceptions. Upon taking mental damage, the person applying the damage chooses a pile - either In Hand, Contingency, or In Play. The defender then flips over runes of his choice, one per point of damage, until there are no more runes to flip in that pile. Any runes being used for Metas are immediately removed from the Base power, but remain in that pile on the playmat. Once all the runes in that pile are flipped, damage is applied as per physical damage, starting from the lowest pile in wounds and moving up. Flipped runes are Unbound. They are considered to have no color, and are not associated with the rune character, an active power or a skill. They can still be used for anything that doesn't require a colored rune or a rune character, but nothing else. Thus, Unbound runes cannot be used to activate active powers, gain heightened levels of success on skill checks during combat, or be used as Meta runes. They can be used to make Generic actions that don't require a colored rune - like attacks with weapons that are of smaller size than the dweller or moves. At Cleanup, Unbound runes are moved into essence as per normal, and return to their normal state (i.e. they can be used for active powers, metas, etc). the goal on this is to stunt effectiveness without obliterating all ability to do anything. I like my guys to remain somewhat effective, even if it's getting the horses or something. |
Author: | theRajjj [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
Bro I like your idea, but it does add more complexity to the rules. When you start out it does seem pretty unforgiving until you find ways to counter. Have your players tried splitting their runes during upkeep into contingency? Most players with some experience are going to split their runes In-Hand. This reduces the impact of mental damage unless it comes from a maintained power during upkeep. Ragnarok is pretty good at applying traditional "stun". This is one of the places that RGS kicks ass. Rather than making someone lose a turn, they lose actions, never losing the Void. PAX |
Author: | raleel [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
theRajjj wrote: Bro I like your idea, but it does add more complexity to the rules. When you start out it does seem pretty unforgiving until you find ways to counter. Have your players tried splitting their runes during upkeep into contingency? Most players with some experience are going to split their runes In-Hand. This reduces the impact of mental damage unless it comes from a maintained power during upkeep. Ragnarok is pretty good at applying traditional "stun". This is one of the places that RGS kicks ass. Rather than making someone lose a turn, they lose actions, never losing the Void. PAX well, relatively few runes to split does impact them at their low levels, and they didn't have a lot of ways to counter either. I personally have less of an issue with it as the Norn, and I felt the pinch from the Skald, but I can see how that would be irritating. I didn't think I would like restrict myself from using mental damage denizens until later, but I was also aware that this particular player really dislikes being restricted like this. I have other players who have said "stun is no fun" in other systems. I'm formulating another thing to do to help out for my own table, but it's not specifically to address stun. I'll post that in a bit. I personally don't think it adds any real complexity. It sort of puts a virtual would pile in the middle before it gets moved to essence - the "flipped over" pile. I can see how folks might not like that though. |
Author: | Audun [ Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
mhm, it's a pretty long write-up, but basically once you lose runes to mind dmg, you can still use them for generic actions this combat round. Sounds good and in spirit it's not really more complicated than the base rules. Like it, thanks for sharing. @raleel: In our crusade to change the system from 1-2 rounds for a battle to 3-7 rounds we even changed Mind dmg to a simple "works like physical dmg but the attacker can choose any Rune from the defender in Hand, Contingency or in-play pile that must soak the dmg". It's simple, elegant, and addresses 2 main problems of Mind dmg (going first or Upkeep-M-dmg = win, while going last = sux -- and scalability: you don't need to Amplify to even kill the hardest opponents which leads to boring gameplay). It also makes low-lvl ppl "just" lose 1-2 runes (like parrying/defending) instead of a "you don't play with us anymore, grab your chips and watch tv while we finish this round", but as the attacker can choose the rune now, it's still reaaally useful to use. But more of a precision instrument instead of a blunt hammer. Basically, it's no longer: "play 1-2 runes with free Area meta from being a skald to let a group of 3 dwellers lose 3x5 Runes, thus instantly winning the battle as your party members mop the now-helpless bodies up" --- but more a "I get to precisely choose that I want to kill that certain maintained rune-chain or make sure that our opponent does not Power-attack/Mauling/Versatile/Troll Smash/etc. this round". So far it works and also scales well with higher levels (25+). And Amplifying is actually useful now. So I can see your houserule working well as well. |
Author: | andrew [ Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
Cool try it out and let me know how it works. I'm always compiling RGS improvements for the inevitable v3. So far on the list: 1) Unified metas for Actives and Skills 2) Seamless in/out of combat (no jarring initiative) |
Author: | creativehum [ Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lunch time game postmortem |
I know this thread is really old, but I'd love to follow up on a couple of points if possible. Quote: I wouldn't be the first, second, third, fourth, or 50th to go wtf on some parts of the system, although Denizens helps a lot here. It is somewhat difficult to overstate how important Denizens is to the system... So much of denizens has important information and lessons learned from the core book and new players. I am finally getting around to reading the Fate of the Norns Core Rules. Can anyone address (with specific page numbers, if possible) what elements of Denizens of the North I should make sure to go read immediately upon finishing the core rules. I'm honestly finding the rules as they stand compelling as all hell. (Though, yes, I can see there is a steep system mastery curve. All the pieces look like they'll work wonderfully well together -- once a player understand how the pieces work together!) But once I wrap them up I'd love to jump to whatever pages are going help me get on with understand the rules at the greatest pace. Thanks! |
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