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 Post subject: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Trying to figure out when this would actually be a useful active power. As a weak defense, even at max taunt the ability seems like it would be replaced by the generic action as soon as your base parry hits 4 which happens with any shield or Unencumbered Dodger and a weapon with parry.

Is there some sort of scaling or facet I'm missing?

Edit: Related question, Taunter's Finesse & Insulting Parry: If I was at +1 Taunt when I use Insulting Parry, does the newly granted +1 Parry from Taunter's Finesse count towards the current attack?


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:13 am 
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On mask of mockery... my group applies the +1 per taunt level after the weak attack. Even then, the generic action can't be amplified. So, it can get quite high quite quickly.

On taunters finesse and insulting parry... I can't find the specific reference, but you can apply sources in whichever order you want, iirc. Thus, you could get the bonus to taunt before the current parry and gain the benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:51 am 
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You can use multiple defenses so you don't need to amplify a weak defense for the parry value you can just use another one. 90% of the time I'd just rather use the version of Mask of Mockery from Fafnir's Treasure than the Core book version. :\

I thought so on Taunting/Insulting, that's good.


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Alright

parry 4 for a metal shield, and a hand axe. Defense 4. you can defend, per rune, at 4/rune

mask of mockery with the same items. Defense (4/2=) 2 because it's Weak, +1 per point of taunt. I've got 1-4 taunt. that's 3-6 defense. at 2 taunt it doesn't help, but at 3 and 4 it certainly does - you are getting 5 or 6 per rune.


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:36 pm 
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The rule for Weak : "Some generic actions are “Weak”. This means that the final numerical value of the action after all modifiers have been accounted for is halved (round up fractions)."

So by your reading the Active Power modifier is applied after Weak, I'm struggling to find an interpretation where that makes sense given the fairly unambiguous rule. Can you explain or is that just a house rule?


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Our interpretation came from a weak action plus the bonus potentially being zero. That and several actions being worthless (including mask of mockery) if that was not the case. I am almost certain mask of mockery came up in our first run as we had a dual shield wielding shield maiden.

I recently had a private message with Andrew about Sources, which relates to this. I asked about power attack, and how many Sources it has, and the answer is two - an attack, and a damage bonus. Because of this, I also think that Mask of Mockery has two sources - the weak defense, and the bonus to defense.

I'd also point out that the generic action in mask of mockery is the defense, not the defense plus a bonus :) yes, that is a fine hair to split, but the power attack question also indicates that it is a hair to be split.

believe me, I get where you are coming from on this, which is why I asked the power attack question in the first place, and why we made that interpretation (I am hesitant to call it a house rule)


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:55 pm 
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raleel wrote:
Our interpretation came from a weak action plus the bonus potentially being zero. That and several actions being worthless (including mask of mockery) if that was not the case. I am almost certain mask of mockery came up in our first run as we had a dual shield wielding shield maiden.
I recently had a private message with Andrew about Sources, which relates to this. I asked about power attack, and how many Sources it has, and the answer is two - an attack, and a damage bonus. Because of this, I also think that Mask of Mockery has two sources - the weak defense, and the bonus to defense.
I'd also point out that the generic action in mask of mockery is the defense, not the defense plus a bonus :) yes, that is a fine hair to split, but the power attack question also indicates that it is a hair to be split.
Believe me, I get where you are coming from on this, which is why I asked the power attack question in the first place, and why we made that interpretation (I am hesitant to call it a house rule)


Okay, even given that interpretation Mask of Mockery is still useless with a Metal Shield, Hand Axe, Taunters Finesse and Unencumbered Dodger on a lv10 character. That gives a parry of 6 +taunt/2 base causing Mask of Mockery to be at BEST equivalent. Amplify to amp Parry is equivalently useless.

Just frustrated when my 'reliable' class ability is so terrible.


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:16 pm 
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I will tell you that the maiden provided the MOST frustration for me as a Norn. what problems are you having? can you post something of your build? The maiden we had was a horrible nightmare of death messing with the Norn.

you are making some assumptions about your equipment. Mask of Mockery works quite well with out the shield, and gives a solid bit of defense. Disarm is completely a thing :) Also, turns out to be a great anti-maiden ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:40 am 
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Haven't actually had a chance to play the character yet, just building it and realizing any ability that provides a weak attack/defense and no 'utility' effect doesn't scale properly and is generally terrible to acquire. The face that for Maiden one of these is your class ability is doubly terrible, especially after moving from Blacksmith with Soul-bound Strike which is pretty awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Mask of Mockery
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:36 am 
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I'm late to the party. ;) I believe this was fixed already. I'm pretty sure it's in the Errata thread in the post 2015 stuff. Every Active power is 8 QR worth of effects, and an Attack or Defend action is worth 6 QR. This would leave 2 points for a bonus normally (see Superior Parry). Having the bonus scale on Taunt, you are losing a QR at +1, at +2 it's a wash and at +3/+4 you have more benefit than normal.

Mask of Mockery: Perform a Defend action with a +1 Parry bonus equal to your Taunt intensity.

Brokk you have a good eye for power value ;)

I know Raleel has posted a few times at how disruptive the MoR can be upon the battlefield. As the monsters you want to avoid her because she will tank almost anything you throw at her. Ideally you ignore her and hit her allies first, however Taunt messes you up. To ignore her you effectively need to lose a quarter of their actions. She is very effective in watering-down what the monsters can do.

Edit: The dwellers in the Core Rulebook were created before we adopted the mission statement where we will grant archetypes unique powers for their specs. If we do a major revision to v.2.5 I will probably redo their specs. She would love to have access to the defend metas that we released with Denizens of the North.

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