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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Another session today. questions that came up

  • does a person who is unconscious but does not have all his runes in the death pile count as bloodied? I ruled no, because I didn't want the blood wolf doing that :)
  • what happens if someone taunts and the target cannot physically perform an attack on them? I ruled they had to move towards them. Also made me think about ranged weapons.
  • how do alkas work? I handled this one, the guy just hadn't read.
  • what happens with turn the blade and conditions? if you parry the whole attack, does the condition apply? I ruled that yes, it does, you had to defend the condition separately, but if turn the blade deflected the whole attack, it ALSO applied the condition to the other guy.

as a whole much smoother. they felt that 6 level 9 guys against their 5 level 11s was not a fair fight (they won handily) and I will agree. However, I specifically did this one so that it would not be hard and that they would get a feel for things. Some of it is me learning too.

I feel MUCH more comfortable pulling out a kraken on them now and not pulling any punches. the blood wolf pulled off a multi bite for like 16, helped by the skald's night of the long knives. the stoli managed to draw a rune in the second round, and the galdr remembered his Beckon Yggdrasil. the maiden with two shields blocked 14.

I am going to explore putting Pierce from weapons into the Amplify when doing powers. It seems oddly inconsistent with the presence of disarms and unarmed combat and fangs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:18 am 
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Some re-feedback:

Quote:
what happens with turn the blade and conditions? if you parry the whole attack, does the condition apply? I ruled that yes, it does, you had to defend the condition separately, but if turn the blade deflected the whole attack, it ALSO applied the condition to the other guy.

Unless you house-rule, it will not apply the condition. Per se, there are no "attacks with conditions", even though playing just 1 Action/Rune/Runechain implies that to our brains. But technically, there are only Maneuvers that let you perform an Attack and apply a Condition (Hamstring e.g.).
If TtB would state that it deflects a maneuver, it would work, but it "just" states "Attack", so just a part of the Maneuver.

Quote:
as a whole much smoother. they felt that 6 level 9 guys against their 5 level 11s was not a fair fight (they won handily) and I will agree. However, I specifically did this one so that it would not be hard and that they would get a feel for things. Some of it is me learning too.

Yeah, this is our experience as well. On starting levels, PC will outshine NPC due to the Void rune (having 3 instead of 2 actions is huge), but around lvl 15ish this balance of power started shifting towards NPCs being stronger - by lvl 25 I'd say that a NPC with the same level and equipment is superior to any PC not having a killer Void rune.
Being able to reliably play the best Offensive Runes / playing the perfect Counters like Cleansing block every round make higher level NPC really shine - especially if you build them with some "rune-draining-passives" like Pounce etc.


Quote:
I am going to explore putting Pierce from weapons into the Amplify when doing powers. It seems oddly inconsistent with the presence of disarms and unarmed combat and fangs.

Would love to hear your feedback (via PM, if it does not fit in here), as we wen't the opposite route :D - we made Pierce abit weaker (does not ignore PF not), as we though it was too easy/cheap to get on weapons. But this is without FoTN-Defensive Metas..


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:33 am 
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Audun wrote:
Some re-feedback:

Quote:
what happens with turn the blade and conditions? if you parry the whole attack, does the condition apply? I ruled that yes, it does, you had to defend the condition separately, but if turn the blade deflected the whole attack, it ALSO applied the condition to the other guy.

Unless you house-rule, it will not apply the condition. Per se, there are no "attacks with conditions", even though playing just 1 Action/Rune/Runechain implies that to our brains. But technically, there are only Maneuvers that let you perform an Attack and apply a Condition (Hamstring e.g.).
If TtB would state that it deflects a maneuver, it would work, but it "just" states "Attack", so just a part of the Maneuver.


let's take Hamstring as an example -
what I just read there was (and please correct me if I am wrong) that I should read Hamstring like

Perform a (Weak (Attack action with a +1 P damage bonus)) and (apply the Impeded condition with a +1 Intensity). The victim can counter the Impeded condition. Intensification by playing a Physical rune.

where you compute your attack with a +1P, make it weak, then apply the condition as a separate thing. Turn the blade only affects the attack, not the condition application.

or is it

Perform a (Weak Attack action) with a +1 P damage bonus)) and (apply the Impeded condition with a +1 Intensity). The victim can counter the Impeded condition. Intensification by playing a Physical rune.

where I computer a weak attack, add a +1P bonus, then apply the condition separately.

Quote:
I am going to explore putting Pierce from weapons into the Amplify when doing powers. It seems oddly inconsistent with the presence of disarms and unarmed combat and fangs.

Would love to hear your feedback (via PM, if it does not fit in here), as we wen't the opposite route :D - we made Pierce abit weaker (does not ignore PF not), as we though it was too easy/cheap to get on weapons. But this is without FoTN-Defensive Metas..[/quote]

first step will be me working up a spreadsheet for it but I'll explain some of our thinking here.

our feeling is that since Pierce for unarmed (fangs, etc) is added into the amp, it becomes clearly better at cutting through armor. Unarmed does get fangs, so it's not really fair to compare Fangs + Unarmed to a weapon, so we give the weapons 1 passive rune worth of boost. We will use a two hander for simplicity.

fangs, on a PC at least, is never going to be below +2 damage, +2 pierce, +2 parry. adding in your base unarmed (DF1), you get DF3,Pierce2, Parry2, Reach 1. you only get one attack with that, which is why we compare to a two hander. that is a 1 rune, scaling, QR6 weapon at level 5-9. That should end up with approximately the same investment as a two hander with Martial prowess.

once you amplify, though, all bets are off.

we'll see. I don't feel comfortable making any statements about it until I do up some numbers. My guess is that fangs scales about the same as the rate of magic weapon power increase (2.5QR every 5 levels = 5 QR every 10 levels = 50%, which is what is suggested without blacksmiths), but amplifying screws it up badly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:29 pm 
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raleel wrote:
Another session today. questions that came up

  • does a person who is unconscious but does not have all his runes in the death pile count as bloodied? I ruled no, because I didn't want the blood wolf doing that :)
  • what happens if someone taunts and the target cannot physically perform an attack on them? I ruled they had to move towards them. Also made me think about ranged weapons.
  • how do alkas work? I handled this one, the guy just hadn't read.
  • what happens with turn the blade and conditions? if you parry the whole attack, does the condition apply? I ruled that yes, it does, you had to defend the condition separately, but if turn the blade deflected the whole attack, it ALSO applied the condition to the other guy.


  • Bloodied is half runes in Wounds and below. Of course some special situations may exist where you have to rule it another way and that's OK!
  • If they are in the Taunt AoE, then yes they would play runes to get to the taunter. They may also play runes to ignore the taunt.
  • Alkas get more love in DotN.
  • TtB is for attack actions/sources only. It was carefully written to avoid using words like "rune chains" or "manoeuvres".
As for the pierce discussion, I'm curious how you guys play both angles and your conclusions.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Quote:
let's take Hamstring as an example -
what I just read there was (and please correct me if I am wrong) that I should read Hamstring like

Perform a (Weak (Attack action with a +1 P damage bonus)) and (apply the Impeded condition with a +1 Intensity). The victim can counter the Impeded condition. Intensification by playing a Physical rune.

where you compute your attack with a +1P, make it weak, then apply the condition as a separate thing. Turn the blade only affects the attack, not the condition application.

or is it

Perform a (Weak Attack action) with a +1 P damage bonus)) and (apply the Impeded condition with a +1 Intensity). The victim can counter the Impeded condition. Intensification by playing a Physical rune.

where I computer a weak attack, add a +1P bonus, then apply the condition separately.


Both versions are the same when it comes to TtB and conditions, so I'm not quite sure what's the question (?) *confused*

If it's about how Weak actions work, then page 100 implies that it's
"where you compute your attack with a +1P, make it weak, then apply the condition as a separate thing. Turn the blade only affects the attack, not the condition application."


If it's about Ttb being less strong, then TtB not "countering" conditions could be a design decision to avoid pigeon-hole-builds, where a Maiden (or other class that might get TtB) just needs to stack Parry and get normal offense AND condition in the process. Being able to neglect dmg on items and still dish out dmg is already good, as it's a way to create virtual Runes/Runeadvantage, with insane effects if an opponent is ...reckless enough to Amplify attacks vs a Maiden that can still go for an Amplified Defense that round ^^;


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:05 pm 
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I'm starting to think of those as "take two weak attacks, only one attack applies a condition". at least that is how it works in my mind. One of my players doesn't like it, but kinda tough on that :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:03 pm 
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More questions

  • what level is meant in “level +6” of gate powers?”
  • Do you add the Base Level adjustment to this?
  • Does that effectively make it “create a monster and give it 6 levels” or do you need to pay for the base level adjustment out of the “+6” provided (making conjure troll illusion an effective level 8 - 6 + 2 for adjustment, or effective level 4 = 6 - 2 for level adjustment)?
  • does fully Defending against power that has an Attack and inflicts a Condition also block inflicting the condition from being applied?
    what’s the intent behind Pierce when acquired from weapons not being Amplified versus Pierce acquired from powers (active or passive) being Amplified?
  • What is the effect that playing a single rune is supposed to give? It appears that any rune can make an attack, or defend, or provide a boost. It would be helpful to know what scale is being talked about.
  • What is the difference between an interrupt and a contingency? It says they are similar, but it is difficult to tease out what the real difference is.
  • Does the Defend action have a target? It's not explicitly stated, and matters for Blind. I preemptively said yes :)

some of these have been answered. I normally have more on Thursdays, Fridays, and Mondays. Games are on Thursdays, so they tend to pile in shortly thereafter.

here are some other comments from them, but not specifically questions
  • the layout with the boards being separated so far from the powers is very challenging. It makes it hard to reference. However, they also realize that this is a hard problem to solve. It was suggested that powers utilized by the class be put with the class, and they also realize this would explode the size of the book.
  • some players said that some descriptions were strongly flavored and made it difficult (their words) to envision what the power was supposed to do. Some of this came out of the Hamstring/Head-Bash/etc style "Attack + Condition application" powers and blocking the full thing. Some of it came out of things like having a 1 Physical rune guy ("Weak health, prone to illness") with Might ("You are stronger than average, and your melee weapons strike with greater impact.")


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:13 am 
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Quote:
does fully Defending against power that has an Attack and inflicts a Condition also block inflicting the condition from being applied?


Nope. Conditions require the appropriate counter rune to be played. They are typically written like this' "[Counter: P]". Remember that the damage from the attack portion and the condition being implied are different sources.

Quote:
What is the effect that playing a single rune is supposed to give? It appears that any rune can make an attack, or defend, or provide a boost. It would be helpful to know what scale is being talked about.


What rune can be used for a generic attack or defend action depends on the equipment being used. There is a chart on a page I can't remember right now that lays it out. It's a matter of the size ratio between the player and the gear they are using.

Regardless of which type of rune needs to be played, the end result will always be the same. For an attack, it is assumed the player is using all damage dealing equipment being held. So you play the appropriate rune and just add up the DF and Pierce of what you are carrying. That's all there is to it.

Defense is basically the same. Except you adds things like Parry and Evade(if it matches the type of damage) from equipment. If the rune matches the type of damage, you get a +1 to the defend action as well.

These are obviously not as powerful as Active powers, but they might be all that's available.

Quote:
What is the difference between an interrupt and a contingency? It says they are similar, but it is difficult to tease out what the real difference is.


{Interrupt} is a type of power that can be played from the In-Hand pile during another players turn and thus interrupts the turn. A contingency is any power that is placed in the Contingency pile during the Upkeep phase or the players Action phase. They work like interrupts, but only trigger if and when the condition which was declared as the trigger occurs. A player might put Mauling or Lunging Attack in the Contingency pile, which would allow them to function like an {Interrupt}. However, a player could not decide to play either of those from the In-Hand pile during another players turn, because they aren't {Interrupts}.

I hope that helps.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:00 pm 
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Moldof wrote:
Quote:
does fully Defending against power that has an Attack and inflicts a Condition also block inflicting the condition from being applied?


Nope. Conditions require the appropriate counter rune to be played. They are typically written like this' "[Counter: P]". Remember that the damage from the attack portion and the condition being implied are different sources.


right, we figured that in the other thread. One of my players thinks there is no way to defend. I think we have a different definition of defend.

Moldof wrote:
Quote:
What is the effect that playing a single rune is supposed to give? It appears that any rune can make an attack, or defend, or provide a boost. It would be helpful to know what scale is being talked about.


What rune can be used for a generic attack or defend action depends on the equipment being used. There is a chart on a page I can't remember right now that lays it out. It's a matter of the size ratio between the player and the gear they are using.

Regardless of which type of rune needs to be played, the end result will always be the same. For an attack, it is assumed the player is using all damage dealing equipment being held. So you play the appropriate rune and just add up the DF and Pierce of what you are carrying. That's all there is to it.

Defense is basically the same. Except you adds things like Parry and Evade(if it matches the type of damage) from equipment. If the rune matches the type of damage, you get a +1 to the defend action as well.

These are obviously not as powerful as Active powers, but they might be all that's available.


Yea, I think this is more of a system scope/design sort of question. What are the base assumptions? "One rune should do an attack. If you play a specific rune, you get a +1 attack" sort of things.

It helps with understanding, and also helps with making other things for the system - you could have a meaning for a 1 handed and two handed "Mental Attack"

Moldof wrote:
Quote:
What is the difference between an interrupt and a contingency? It says they are similar, but it is difficult to tease out what the real difference is.


{Interrupt} is a type of power that can be played from the In-Hand pile during another players turn and thus interrupts the turn. A contingency is any power that is placed in the Contingency pile during the Upkeep phase or the players Action phase. They work like interrupts, but only trigger if and when the condition which was declared as the trigger occurs. A player might put Mauling or Lunging Attack in the Contingency pile, which would allow them to function like an {Interrupt}. However, a player could not decide to play either of those from the In-Hand pile during another players turn, because they aren't {Interrupts}.

I hope that helps.


it does, and that's kind of the point I came to. {Interrupts} can only be played as such. You cannot de-Interrupt them. Most of them it doesn't make sense. Contingency lets you take something and turn it into a limited scope interrupt. It gets dedicated to that action (moved into Contingency) and thus loses some power over an {Interrupt} - you can have a power bound to an {Interrupt} then not actually use it as such, where as once you commit to the Contingency, you are committed to that for that rune - it's in Contingency and can't be pulled out (interesting design space there - rune bound to "pull out of contingency" power, letting you change your plans quickly. Sounds like a Stalo thing)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:33 pm 
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raleel wrote:
Yea, I think this is more of a system scope/design sort of question. What are the base assumptions? "One rune should do an attack. If you play a specific rune, you get a +1 attack" sort of things.
It helps with understanding, and also helps with making other things for the system - you could have a meaning for a 1 handed and two handed "Mental Attack"


So let me elaborate about the 1 rune 1 action principle. When I sit the players down for an introductory demo I'll explain the fundamental rule 0 that trumps everything else in the book: Every rune is an action, any action that your dweller can conceivably pull off (Norn's discretion)... if you have a destiny of 3, then you have 4 actions (include the Void rune). If you wish to do something that seems extreme in any one trait, example: I want to jump off the rafters onto the antler chandelier and break them off to use as weapons and drop down on the enemies below; then the Norn will probably tell you the jump and break action requires a physical rune and the dropping down may be a free action unless you wish to strike someone below you, then you can play any rune to do an attack. So don't let anything limit your imagination, go wild with your generic (I tend to add the word "cinematic" in the same breath) actions. You should always begin with, "I'd like to do X" and then ask the Norn what runes you'd need to play to achieve this. This is rule 0.

Taking it up a notch for crunch, you have Active powers that are bound to specific symbols. If you play those specific symbols, you get to use your special powers. You can combine generic/cinematic actions with Active powers so long as you have the runes.

Taking it up another notch for crunch, we talk about metas. Each added rune will morph the power in interesting and versatile ways.

To sum it up, playing a rune gives you a cinematic action, if you match up some extra criteria (ie. symbol or colour), you'll get more "juice" out of your action.

I think some of this could be summarized in some 2-page spread that perhaps we can create as a free download or an insert into the 3rd printing. I've been giving it some continued thought since Beth brought it up.

Moldof wrote:
what’s the intent behind Pierce when acquired from weapons not being Amplified versus Pierce acquired from powers (active or passive) being Amplified?


There are a few reasons behind this design. To begin with, it's not just pierce, all of the benefits included in power effects such as Reach, DF, Pierce, PF, Parry, Range get Amplified (if they are written out as numbers). The reason they get Amped is because they are all within safe ranges- when powers are created they use strict power control building blocks. Conversely, item creation was always intended to be the dominion of players and would allow for much more generous numerical spread. Players could go to extremes using the building blocks provided. Limiting DF and Parry was a conscious decision because when Pierce is allowed into the club, then you must include PF. If PF and Pierce, why not Range and Reach? Then you get someone with a condition inflicting build that has a melee weapon with reach 10 that can Multi and Amp it, what happens? Complexities not withstanding, you start to see "broken" strategies. Because RGS provides a game within a game of some resource management, you need to keep the rune-to-rune ratios in check.

Secondly, let's keep math simple. The less attributes that need to get multiplied, the better. Limiting the multiplication of 1 offensive attribute and 1 defensive attribute (DF and Parry respectively) achieves the goal of offensive and defensive scaling without going overboard. Yes we could have had every number multiply, but then not only does the calculation take longer, it has impacts on more than just damage, and you get the inevitable realism questions: "how did I just triple my reach?". Via beta testing of various configurations we concluded that minimal numerical scaling achieves the effect without introducing unnecessary complications.

Thirdly, Amplify needs to be in the same "value" range as the other metas. If it does TOO MUCH, then it breaks the value equivalence of metas, and people seek out the powers with the obviously bigger-bang-for-your-buck metas.

It's a complex design decision that had to take all of these factors (and probably more that I'm not remembering right now) into account. As Rajjj said, don't rush in too early to house rule some of the stuff, because a lot of thought, reasoning and testing went into building things into the way they are. Yes some things were "broken" in the CRB because the Blacksmith/crafting and defensive metas were missing, but it should be whole now. And I DO ENCOURAGE more questions like this, I'm happy to share the design decisions behind them. And perhaps with hundreds more players playing, we will have a much more thought out and robust system in an eventual RGS 3.0

Moldof wrote:
it does, and that's kind of the point I came to. {Interrupts} can only be played as such. You cannot de-Interrupt them. Most of them it doesn't make sense. Contingency lets you take something and turn it into a limited scope interrupt. It gets dedicated to that action (moved into Contingency) and thus loses some power over an {Interrupt} - you can have a power bound to an {Interrupt} then not actually use it as such, where as once you commit to the Contingency, you are committed to that for that rune - it's in Contingency and can't be pulled out (interesting design space there - rune bound to "pull out of contingency" power, letting you change your plans quickly. Sounds like a Stalo thing)


I'm not too sure if there is a question here. Contingency came about as a result of the initiative system. It allows people to commit some delayed actions if they need them to trigger later in the round. It may also allow some interesting 1-2 punches as dwellers setup a devastating multi-combatant attack. It's intended as a pretty free-flowing organic mechanic, ruled by the Norn. We didn't want a huge section describing the do's and don'ts of this system. Each play group will find their happy sweet spot on what's an acceptable contingency condition and what crosses the line to power gaming to system breaking. Our group for example stamped out any thought of players setting up all of their runes to trigger on someone else's Upkeep (or another combatant acting first in the initiative) allowing someone to "cheat" their actions into priority. Probably a tip we can put into the Norn's Sanctum thread.

As for {interrupt} Active powers, I wanted player to be able to react to one another's actions, but not get to the point of complexity found in Magic the Gathering (ie. interrupt stack). This design philosophy continues in my other designs such as Vigridr. :)

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