Fate of the Norns

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:24 am 
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I think we should consider reintroducing the Risi bloodlines as a thing in Lords of the Ash.
Perhaps as a stretch-goal?

It could be like the Troll-blooded? Only perhaps with a bit more benevolent magic worked in?

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:50 pm 
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From what I'm seeing, this next book will eclipse even the awesomeness of DotN. Keep up the great work Andrew & team!


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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:21 pm 
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I'm going to be in non-stop demos this weekend, so I powered through this update tonight.

Changes:
- Godi Divine magic got a nice overhaul. The new system is way cooler, but may create a lot more design work.
- New powers
- Who's-who is complete for now (will get normalized once the Illuminated Edda manuscript is complete)
- Some other stuff that I forget now... it's late and I need to get some shut-eye.


Tshober: We'll take a look on similarities between Miracle and Divine magic next week. I needed to apply some feedback to Divine first.

Raleel: Blot and Faining may still get a merge as you suggest. It's next on my analysis list.

Aegir: Archetypes as stretch goals are tricky. We seriously shortchanged ourselves with the amount of work required when we did Denizens of the North. If we do add archetypes as stretch goals, they will be spaced out much better than last time. :P

Beth: Thanks for the kind words! :)

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:51 pm 
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andrew wrote:
I'm going to be in non-stop demos this weekend, so I powered through this update tonight.

Changes:
- Godi Divine magic got a nice overhaul. The new system is way cooler, but may create a lot more design work.
- New powers
- Who's-who is complete for now (will get normalized once the Illuminated Edda manuscript is complete)
- Some other stuff that I forget now... it's late and I need to get some shut-eye.


Tshober: We'll take a look on similarities between Miracle and Divine magic next week. I needed to apply some feedback to Divine first.

Raleel: Blot and Faining may still get a merge as you suggest. It's next on my analysis list.

Aegir: Archetypes as stretch goals are tricky. We seriously shortchanged ourselves with the amount of work required when we did Denizens of the North. If we do add archetypes as stretch goals, they will be spaced out much better than last time. :P

Beth: Thanks for the kind words! :)


Well, I understand, but I wasn't suggesting that it was to be an archetype, but rather a Disir add-on, like Fylgja and Troll-blooded.

And, regarding the Who-is-Who.
Mimir. Do you really consider that there are two of them? Around here, it's pretty widely considered that Mimir is a jotun, and the same person as the one that was beheaded and reanimated by Odin.

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:29 am 
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I'll be honest, I find the current trend in "scholarly thinking" to be a bit lazy with an eagerness to oversimplify that tarnishes the valuable subtleties found in the myths. There are mythological beings who use many names, with the most obvious being Odin. But when I start to read an academic's paper and they try to equate Freya with Gulveig as well as Frigga, I tend to call shenanigans. I'll try and follow their logic, but most of the time it's tenuous at best. Another was Loki and Ultgarda-Loki which was just a logical train-wreck. There aren't enough similarities between the Mimir who tends the well and the Mimir who went from the Aesir to the Vanir to draw a connection. Just as there are two Valis I strongly believe we're dealing with two Mimirs. In Snorri's list of kennings, Mimir is used for a broad spectrum of terms, reducing the theory further that the name has a very tight and narrow connotation.

At this point I do have to say there there are some solid contemporary scholars who make many great points and dig up references I wasn't even aware existed. In such an old and broad body of work as Scandinavian mythology, we'll always be learning something new. :) So if you have some references and arguments for equating the two Mimirs, I'll be glad to look at them. :)

I've always read "academic documentation" with a grain of salt, because many feel under pressure to "revolutionize" their field of study- and sometimes the claims are just too outlandish and nonsensical. Similarly many of the works from the Victorian age were created by looking at the mythology through a lens which greatly distorted the facts. So when looking at new material, always take a look at how it fits into the greater context. </end-monday-morning-rant> ;)

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:46 pm 
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Mimir. Mim. Memory. It is true that this is widely applied across the language as a keening.
I usually apply Occam's Razor to these things, but you may have a point. I don't even think there are any scholars who have delved into the possibility of there being two Mimirs, so, you may actually be the first to bring this up.

One thing I think speaks for them being the same character, would be the fact that the Aesir have accepted Jotuns into their midst before.
Loki, Tyr etc.

*If* Aesir Mimir is the same as Jotun Mimir, you might consider Havamal 139 as the link between them (a theory placed by a recent scholar), with Mimir being the son of Bolthorn and the brother of Bestla, and as such, the uncle of Odin, who gave him the secrets of the Runes, and is as such, a font of knowledge to Odin.
It could give perspective to the position of advisor that he held in Asgard, and the lengths Odin went to, solely to retain the wisdom of Mimir.
A kinsman is a valued member, and many older family members retained advisor positions to their rulers, in societies such as the Norse societies. If Mimir is just a title for someone being wise, why would Odin animate the head?

In the end, my own research in this topic yields the same answer. That there is none. No difinite answer, and for the game, I think it's more important you create what you will assume to give most play in the setting of the RPG. Sometimes, you gotta draw some lines to connect the dots.
I, personally, find the idea of the wisest of them all, being a Jotun, yet, connected to the Aesir even at their inception, slowly affecting the world, the Aesir and his own people, to be more intriguing for an RPG. I have even considered The Forest of Hoddmimir (or, Hodmir, as you call it in the Core) could be a project of Mimir's?
Him, preparing the world for live beyond Ragnarok.

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:54 pm 
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OK rather large beta drop. The main new talking point I want BETA members to discuss: Orlog was written up but I pulled the powers/skills because I'd like a discussion about Void magic (without any preconceived notions). I need to add Void magic to the new Norn screen so it's the next big focal point of the BETA. Void magic is what created Yggdrasil and all of the primordial life forms. The Alfar have a unique talent of being the (polar opposite) "magnets" which stir the crucible of life. Through their involvement the unique lifeforms, spirits and lands sprang into being. Frey is called king of the Alfar since he understands the Lios Alfar better than anyone (except Vafthrudnir who is Orlog prime). You will see in the Illuminated Edda how Nidhogg (and his brethren the Alsvartr) were responsible for the Svart Alfar. The strife between light and dark is what keeps Void energy active and creative. The War of Shadow has a large impact on the outcome of Ragnarok, but we'll have that discussion after tIE is released. Right now, I'd like some feedback on Void magic. The madness <spoiler> are the voices of the imprisoned Alsvartr </spoiler> and they seek to re-enter the world via the crucible. Every use of Void magic is an opportunity. This magic is incredible in scope, but it comes at a price of sanity. Think of this as Viking Cthulhu. All of these books, the story line and the lore have been planned out for years. It's all finally coming together, but I want it to be collaborative with the players. All this gin-tonic is probably making this incoherent, but I hope its clear enough. ;) I'll editthis tomorrow LOL

Ægir what stanza are you referring to? If you look at the growing who's who list which will appear as a glossary for The Illuminated Edda, I think many folks will be surprised just how much Jotun blood is mixed into the god clans. As for making the call most appropriate for the game, I decided that Dvergar and Svartalfar are different because that adds so much to the mythos.

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:52 am 
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andrew wrote:
OK rather large beta drop. The main new talking point I want BETA members to discuss: Orlog was written up but I pulled the powers/skills because I'd like a discussion about Void magic (without any preconceived notions). I need to add Void magic to the new Norn screen so it's the next big focal point of the BETA. Void magic is what created Yggdrasil and all of the primordial life forms. The Alfar have a unique talent of being the (polar opposite) "magnets" which stir the crucible of life. Through their involvement the unique lifeforms, spirits and lands sprang into being. Frey is called king of the Alfar since he understands the Lios Alfar better than anyone (except Vafthrudnir who is Orlog prime). You will see in the Illuminated Edda how Nidhogg (and his brethren the Alsvartr) were responsible for the Svart Alfar. The strife between light and dark is what keeps Void energy active and creative. The War of Shadow has a large impact on the outcome of Ragnarok, but we'll have that discussion after tIE is released. Right now, I'd like some feedback on Void magic. The madness <spoiler> are the voices of the imprisoned Alsvartr </spoiler> and they seek to re-enter the world via the crucible. Every use of Void magic is an opportunity. This magic is incredible in scope, but it comes at a price of sanity. Think of this as Viking Cthulhu. All of these books, the story line and the lore have been planned out for years. It's all finally coming together, but I want it to be collaborative with the players. All this gin-tonic is probably making this incoherent, but I hope its clear enough. ;) I'll editthis tomorrow LOL


Ha! Don't drink and post. :lol:
I really like the focus on the creation myths because that is often overlooked in Viking games. The more you bring Nidhogg into the foreground, the more fascinating he becomes.

I'm onboard for a horror driven magic if I'm understanding what you are driving towards. And if you're asking about feedback on the magic system mechanics, I think what you're proposing is quick and easy, possibly even quicker than the possession mechanic.

That said, I think the removal of player metas is really punitive. I don't know why I would cast long meta chains because the madness chances increase. I'm also not sure why you removed the Void magic spells, because I find it hard to judge the magic system without some samples. The text alludes to great power... well how great is it? Great enough to warrant meta removal?

The Permanency meta seems crazy OP. Do I get to keep gated creatures as if they were summons? How do I create life as an Orlog? I think I'll be able to give you more feedback once the Orlog is presented in all his/her glory.

On another note, 3 new monsters! My players will be surprised.


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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:06 am 
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I've been overloaded with work with all of the summer vacation short staff bull$h1+ going on. I relate to the gin tonic bro. So how are my ideas on the AoD holding up? Broken or is it working? I saw you pushed it all the way... taking out all of the heals. I had some time to theory-craft-test it and she plays bitchen. Glad to see the shapechange nerf. With the US+1 options it was broooookkkkken. Tshober you're my biggest critic. Does the AoD work on your end?

So you want Void feedback. First thought, I dig the whole genesis caster. I think you push this archetype to the fringe, make it uber rare, but when its played, make the archetype drag the adventure into a feeling of antiquity. The world is being re-born... and the results aren't predictable. Everyone should feel the earth shake when Void magic is uttered. The MoR and the zerkir archetypes bring uncertainty and danger to the group and the Orlog should feel like the threat level is 3x! Give the Orlog some regular powers if you haven't already, but the handful of Void spells should be memorable as fuk. Big things come in small doses.

Some godi feedback... bro I still think they get too much. They get the patron unique power AND they get the divine magic buff. But they look fun as heck to play!!!!

PAX

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 Post subject: Re: beta
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:43 pm 
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The Orlog is easily the most disruptive archetype so far and the mechanics are very unique. There were a lot of directions explored during Alpha and going into Beta I'm sure it will take new players some time to digest. I agree with the 2-step release, and the Void magic aspect that Andrew wants discussed is the "Abate" meta which sucks another meta off the table as it's being played (at interrupt speed). I think he meant to leave Abate in the doc, but it wasn't there, only referred to in the Void magic section. From the Alpha doc:

"Playing the Abate meta tag on your own {interrupt} rune chain allows you to remove a meta tag from a the rune chain that was being interrupted by you."

Beth you think it's punitive, but it's a rune for rune exchange. It's as fair as it gets. The aspect that I think is worth discussing is the ability to counter (or not). Metas don't really have counters, but this one could warrant one. Rajjj, Ragnur, Raleel, Aegir what do you guys think?

I think Orlog still belongs in Alpha because not every cool option has been explored, but I understand Andrew's need to get Void magic and any new metas sorted out so they can make it onto the v2 of the Norn screen.

I suspect that the Orlog specs are still going to get highly tweaked as we saw happen with the AoD. Rajjj about your Drain suggestion, I think it holds up until the AoD takes too much physical damage and then she stalls out and dies. I saw it happen just last week in a level 10 test game. Your approach with little to no heals makes it that her only option is to self inflict spiritual damage and then draw the NEXT round. And I still hold onto my opinion that nothing should touch the Drain pile. Well we should restart the debate in the right thread.


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