Fate of the Norns

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:08 pm 
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raleel wrote:
I think khunkwai is expressing something that I have pondered about shroud and taunt that are different from the other conditions - the affect others more than you at larger range and are really lacking in counters. It took me forever to really put a finger on it.

Lets take a look at the conditions:
  • aura - 4 range max, but affects many others. this one is close to too powerful for me, but you can use ranged to get out of being hurt. I think that's fair. No passives to control directly, though it's damage and there are plenty of counters via healing
  • blind - affects only you. this is similar to blind, but it impacts only one guy, multiple passivesto control
  • curse - ambiguous, but ostensibly one person
  • degeneration - one person, one time counter, multiple passives to control
  • impeded - one person, one time counter, multiple passives to control
  • possession - one person, one time counter, multiple passives to control
  • rage - one person, once a round counter. there is a power or two I think as well
  • shroud - condition is on one person, but affects everyone, effectively infinite range. problem here is that everyone has to pay by RAW. It implies that you have to pay every round in the description. one passive to count
  • taunt - everyone, starts at 4 hexes (ranged weapons are outside this). at max intensity, ranged people have to be outside of 10 to avoid interaction. That is a pretty far distance. Then, you have to pay every round. On top of that, there is no cost reducer passive like Keen Senses.
  • vulnerable - one person, one time counter, multiple passives to control

As for his solutions, I like them, They are pretty similar to what I would propose (pointed it out, followed instruction, took inspiration from a brave colleague, etc).

Another option for taunt would be something along the lines of "if you attack anyone but the taunter, your attacks are Weak". This sidesteps the "I can't defend or move" question, but makes it much weaker. I'd leave the range and multiple targets at that point. Max intensity would be a double-weak (2 amp runes to overcome).

I might also propose that the Shroud Condition directly counters Taunt, similar to how charm counters possession. That way you can do things like Beckon Yggdrasil and move the taunter through the alka to remove his taunt. This is also supported by Shade of the Dark Mother, where you consume shroud and gain taunt. I think this also opens an interesting design space of for Shroud to be inflicted on others, or Taunt inflicted on others.

edit: in fact, this would make a very interesting role for the Sceadegungan if it's powers were altered to be less about applying shroud to one's self and more about applying shroud. A counter-maiden.


There is a valid concern for Aura, since it's a power that cannot be countered, it needs to be tagged "use sparingly". It has seen a nerf with the very first errata (circa 2013) so that it uses the lower level of the attacker/defender. But even with it, its one that evokes dread on both sides of the table, especially when it's used offensively.

Taunt isn't that that normally comes up as "OP". Unlike Rage, it's doesn't have an inherent benefit. Rage takes away options, but also gives you a huge buff. Taunt slaps you with a negative, and doesn't provide anything in return. It's up to the rest of your build to see if you can hack it. As a result, MoR's that are built poorly and have poor timing/use of the Taunt condition usually are the first to die in the party.

From the Norn's perspective, even low level mobs (say level 12) only lose 1 rune to Taunt 1-3 (assume a D4/E4 build). But good teamwork is there she can shine. Right now we're testing the Missionary and add a Paladin adjacent to the MoR and you start to see trouble.

A side note on Shroud: Shroud is an umbrella condition for "cannot be easily targeted". It may mean the dweller is blazing with a magical aura that blinds those around them (Beckon Yggdrasil or the Son of Muspel power). So don't think it's solely about hiding or shadows.

Agreed on opposing conditions. Ever since DotN, I do like the use of more mutually exclusive conditions/mechanics. We're pushing that some more in LotA. Designing RGS is interesting because even after 10 years, we're still discovering cool directions and angles with rune-play. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm 
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andrew wrote:

Taunt isn't that that normally comes up as "OP". Unlike Rage, it's doesn't have an inherent benefit. Rage takes away options, but also gives you a huge buff. Taunt slaps you with a negative, and doesn't provide anything in return. It's up to the rest of your build to see if you can hack it. As a result, MoR's that are built poorly and have poor timing/use of the Taunt condition usually are the first to die in the party.

From the Norn's perspective, even low level mobs (say level 12) only lose 1 rune to Taunt 1-3 (assume a D4/E4 build). But good teamwork is there she can shine. Right now we're testing the Missionary and add a Paladin adjacent to the MoR and you start to see trouble.


for me it mostly came up because it was difficult to get through a dual-shield maiden with Turn the Blade at low level. You don't have a lot that has a lot of reach to avoid the range restriction. Turn the blade mitigates not having a side benefit like Rage. It affects such a large section of the map. It takes away options from A LOT of people (rather than rage just hitting one guy for the buff).

A pair of shields, at minimum, starts with a 6 parry, and deflect. You end up having to use a swarm of small attacks (often blockable by PF, somewhat high overhead on the norn) or use Mental or Spiritual damage. Dialing in the right level of threat there can be very challenging.

I guess the lesson for the Norns on Taunt is "use aura, ranged or reach to avoid Turn the Blade". A long spear, war fork, flamberge, spiked chain, etc. Something with a reach of at least 3 can't be Turned, even with Aura of Influence. Or something with a reach 2 weapon and Size >= 6, or any melee weapon at Size 11 and keeping them at range with Knockback powers.

When we next run I'll encourage my Maiden player to keep with his dual shields and poke at it more. I feel like a set of polearm guys might do a nice job, or some Amplified ranged guys.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:47 pm 
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What i'm interested in with Taunt is: in my book, there it says "Anyone ... must use all their runes to attack the Taunted individual ..."
That would mean, even my Allies and Thanes would be after my life as long as they are in reach.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:33 pm 
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yep, that's in there.

My group always ignored it for allies and thanes, and it is apparently a common houserule. It does make taunt more interesting to leave it as is! ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:24 am 
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Is "double weak" possible as an effect? If I played an active power that gave a 'weak defense' against someone attacking from behind would that be 1/4 effect?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:23 pm 
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I don't see why it wouldn't. It's not called out, and amplifies stack. amplifies and weaks directly cancel each other.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:52 am 
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Yup Weak should stack, I will add that to the errata.

As for Taunt, you are playing it as intended, it should only Taunt enemies and we should tighten up the language there.

Lords of the Ash adds a new power called Bicker, for Godis of Loki and those types ;)

Bicker
Metas: [Range Multi Open]
Type: {Manoeuvre}
Description: You can escalate the tension in the room.
Combat Effect: Target combatant gets a +1 to their Taunt condition [Counter M]. This special Taunt application forces all combatants to see the target combatant as hostile, even combatants who would normally considered allies (mark the condition with a special token).
Out-of-Combat Effect: You have an uncanny ability to know how to push someone's buttons, aggravating them and driving them to anger.

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